Welcome, Guest! Why not create a free forum account today and join in with the world's friendliest bunch of Kindle enthusiasts

Bookclub: The discussion of The Bird That Nobody Sees (contains spoilers)

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
 
Offline Notoriety Reading The Buddha of Suburbia by Hanif Kureishi
12 Aug 2012, 05:51 PM | Post: #21

Posting Freak
******

Posts: 621
Joined: May 2011

Thanked 1 times

What I Read

RE: Bookclub: The discussion of The Bird That Nobody Sees (contains spoilers)

I'm joining the party a bit late Sujay and I'm afraid I'm in pooping mode (again!). Stu should really go and contemplate his 5 star reviews at this point, sorry!

I've never had such a mixed experience with a book and I can see why people are so enthusiastic about it. I very nearly abandoned it out of frustration but was glad I kept going in the end. I liked the main characters Rod and Liz and became very invested in what happened to them, and I would happily join the Free Rod campaign. The signals about Liz were clearly there but she remained the lesser character though I found her as sympathetic as Rod. Her utterly silent revenge on him "out of the blue" as far as he was concerned must leave him completely baffled and none of their relationship remains in any sense satisfactorily resolved. He simply sits in jail thinking "what a wonderful world" - surprised no reference to Louis Armstrong - while she goes off with the exquisitely awful Dave to a new life in Spain.

I also quite liked the male group - bit stereotypically laconic and pub oriented, with strong Nick Hornby influences, but also rather funny and occasionally more than one-dimensional in the form of Alex, but his different take on the world is never brought into contact with the rest of the group apart from the moment of Rod's "conversion".

I found the central premise "we are all angels, and we can all do good in the world by saying good morning to a stranger" rather sugary for my taste. The remarkable thing was I have never seen a book's organising idea so comprehensively destroyed by its own plot as this one. No sooner had Rod come over all Jerusalem and jollity than he got completely shafted - probably for about 15 years, I'd say. More to the point, the authors of this destruction and confirmation of the reality of evil had been a bunch of self-appointed "angels" whose bungling naivety (and self-deception) had led Rod and Liz completely up the garden path. If ever there was an argument against goodness this book was it. And what "the bird we never see" was about even the epilogue did not enlighten a miserable old curmudgeon like me!

Rather more problematic from the reading point of view was the very uneven writing style. There were some really excellent bits - the Irish pub amongst them - and overall the beginning and the end were better than the middle, apart from the wacky fantasy of being back in the park. However much of it did not work for me. I think Stuart is trying hard for a "literary" style which works very well indeed sometimes but does not come naturally, and is often very stretched, at times becoming incomprehensible or trite. He has a very annoying habit of using rhyming words - "the rain tumbles and the sky rumbles and the earth crumbles" (loc 631) - which I found grated to the point that the only thing I could do with my annoyance was to highlight them for later execution which gave me much pleasure. I found myself varying within the compass of a "page" between enjoying some good writing to having to think why the next passage fell flat.

I think Stuart is potentially a very good writer but he is in desperate need of a patient editor or possibly a writing group that will "slaughter his little darlings" as the phrase has it and encourage his real talent.

Tony
Arab proverb: Only a fool lends his books and only a fool returns them.
Offline Stu Ayris Reading The Prophet by Khalil Gilbran
12 Aug 2012, 06:44 PM | Post: #22

Master of Verbosity
*******

Posts: 1,312
Joined: Jan 2012

Thanked 11 times

What I Read

RE: Bookclub: The discussion of The Bird That Nobody Sees (contains spoilers)

(12 Aug 2012 05:51 PM)Notoriety Wrote:  I'm joining the party a bit late Sujay and I'm afraid I'm in pooping mode (again!). Stu should really go and contemplate his 5 star reviews at this point, sorry!

I've never had such a mixed experience with a book and I can see why people are so enthusiastic about it. I very nearly abandoned it out of frustration but was glad I kept going in the end. I liked the main characters Rod and Liz and became very invested in what happened to them, and I would happily join the Free Rod campaign. The signals about Liz were clearly there but she remained the lesser character though I found her as sympathetic as Rod. Her utterly silent revenge on him "out of the blue" as far as he was concerned must leave him completely baffled and none of their relationship remains in any sense satisfactorily resolved. He simply sits in jail thinking "what a wonderful world" - surprised no reference to Louis Armstrong - while she goes off with the exquisitely awful Dave to a new life in Spain.

I also quite liked the male group - bit stereotypically laconic and pub oriented, with strong Nick Hornby influences, but also rather funny and occasionally more than one-dimensional in the form of Alex, but his different take on the world is never brought into contact with the rest of the group apart from the moment of Rod's "conversion".

I found the central premise "we are all angels, and we can all do good in the world by saying good morning to a stranger" rather sugary for my taste. The remarkable thing was I have never seen a book's organising idea so comprehensively destroyed by its own plot as this one. No sooner had Rod come over all Jerusalem and jollity than he got completely shafted - probably for about 15 years, I'd say. More to the point, the authors of this destruction and confirmation of the reality of evil had been a bunch of self-appointed "angels" whose bungling naivety (and self-deception) had led Rod and Liz completely up the garden path. If ever there was an argument against goodness this book was it. And what "the bird we never see" was about even the epilogue did not enlighten a miserable old curmudgeon like me!

Rather more problematic from the reading point of view was the very uneven writing style. There were some really excellent bits - the Irish pub amongst them - and overall the beginning and the end were better than the middle, apart from the wacky fantasy of being back in the park. However much of it did not work for me. I think Stuart is trying hard for a "literary" style which works very well indeed sometimes but does not come naturally, and is often very stretched, at times becoming incomprehensible or trite. He has a very annoying habit of using rhyming words - "the rain tumbles and the sky rumbles and the earth crumbles" (loc 631) - which I found grated to the point that the only thing I could do with my annoyance was to highlight them for later execution which gave me much pleasure. I found myself varying within the compass of a "page" between enjoying some good writing to having to think why the next passage fell flat.

I think Stuart is potentially a very good writer but he is in desperate need of a patient editor or possibly a writing group that will "slaughter his little darlings" as the phrase has it and encourage his real talent.

Tony

Thanks, Tony, for reading the book and for your really in-depth critique. I certainly have no intention of either repudiating any of your well realised comments or defending the book in any way. It is what it is and everything is open for discussion. That's the marvellous thing about books, films, paintings etc - what one person dislikes, another loves - yet the object remains the same.

So I thank you for your kind words and will certainly think hard about the points you raise. Thanks again.

Stu
Offline Stu Ayris Reading The Prophet by Khalil Gilbran
12 Aug 2012, 07:06 PM | Post: #23

Master of Verbosity
*******

Posts: 1,312
Joined: Jan 2012

Thanked 11 times

What I Read

RE: Bookclub: The discussion of The Bird That Nobody Sees (contains spoilers)

Actually, I will answer a couple of points that Tony raised.

1. I've never read a Nick Hornby book so I'm not too clear if the reference is a good thing or a bad thing. I'm guessing the latter... Whistle

2. I love music as much as writing so often I will write passages as much for the sounds of the words together as for the meaning. I completely understand how this may be an acquired taste. I, happily, blame Jack Kerouac! Wine1

3. The central premise is a continuation of the themes developed in Tollesbury Time Forever (FRUGALITY: Book 1) and is rather deeper than that stated in the post.

4. I don't try at all for any sort of style - not in writing or in any area of my life (ask my wife!).

This time last year I had almost finished Tollesbury Time Forever (FRUGALITY: Book 1), expecting nobody to ever read it. Now I have written and published The Bird That Nobody Sees (FRUGALITY: Book 2), still awe-struck at the general response to Tollesbury Time Forever. I fully confess to not writing in a conventional style and, to be honest, having written the first few thousand words of the last book in the trilogy - I Woke Up This Morning - things are only going to get stranger...

and that's ok. Angel
Offline B J Burton Reading Complete Works of H P Lovecraft
12 Aug 2012, 07:46 PM | Post: #24

Keyboard Worrier
******

Posts: 910
Joined: Nov 2011

Thanked 24 times

What I Read

RE: Bookclub: The discussion of The Bird That Nobody Sees (contains spoilers)

Interesting as ever, Tony - but I couldn't disagree more about the need for a 'patient editor'. Letting an experienced professional editor loose on Stu's work would destroy everything that I like about it.
I don't detect any striving for a 'literary' style. I find a writer who expresses himself naturally, throwing in thoughts as and when they occur to him and occasionally, through sheer good-humoured exuberance, slipping in a few rhyming words to help things along. I find it refreshingly different and thoroughly enjoyable.
In my book it is literary fiction, not because of any writing style, but because the work, rather than being plot driven, is essentially about human relationships.
Occasional author - compulsive reader

[Image: 51ZhtjNV5SL._SL95.jpg][Image: 41yFegpI0yL._SL95.jpg]

http://www.bjburton.co.uk
Offline joo Reading The Cult of Me
12 Aug 2012, 07:54 PM | Post: #25

Official KUF Reviewer and Interrogator
******

Posts: 4,576
Joined: Feb 2011

Thanked 16 times

What I Read

RE: Bookclub: The discussion of The Bird That Nobody Sees (contains spoilers)

I haven't read much of anyone's posts, but I bought this today and started reading it.
The words that came to mind about Stu's writing style (so far) were Floaty and Swirly. It's certainly not "on the ground"
Please put a bowl of water out for hedgehogs and other night-time visitors, you might just save their life.  
While you are at it, feed the birds too. Thumbs Up And come and talk about it at Garden Wildlife Forum
Offline Stu Ayris Reading The Prophet by Khalil Gilbran
12 Aug 2012, 07:57 PM | Post: #26

Master of Verbosity
*******

Posts: 1,312
Joined: Jan 2012

Thanked 11 times

What I Read

RE: Bookclub: The discussion of The Bird That Nobody Sees (contains spoilers)

(12 Aug 2012 07:46 PM)B J Burton Wrote:  I find a writer who expresses himself naturally, throwing in thoughts as and when they occur to him and occasionally, through sheer good-humoured exuberance, slipping in a few rhyming words to help things along.

Got it in one BJ - there really is no more art to it than that! Clapping hands
Offline Stu Ayris Reading The Prophet by Khalil Gilbran
12 Aug 2012, 07:58 PM | Post: #27

Master of Verbosity
*******

Posts: 1,312
Joined: Jan 2012

Thanked 11 times

What I Read

RE: Bookclub: The discussion of The Bird That Nobody Sees (contains spoilers)

(12 Aug 2012 07:54 PM)joo Wrote:  I haven't read much of anyone's posts, but I bought this today and started reading it.
The words that came to mind about Stu's writing style (so far) were Floaty and Swirly. It's certainly not "on the ground"

Having spent many years being told to stay on the ground, floating and swirling is very much my preference these days!
Offline ElaineG Reading Standers by Dale Brumfield
13 Aug 2012, 04:47 AM | Post: #28

Posting Freak
******

Posts: 859
Joined: Jan 2012

Thanked 8 times

What I Read

RE: Bookclub: The discussion of The Bird That Nobody Sees (contains spoilers)

This post was last modified: 13 Aug 2012 05:11 AM by ElaineG.
Just going to take what Notoriety said: "I also quite liked the male group - bit stereotypically laconic and pub oriented, with strong Nick Hornby influences, but also rather funny and occasionally more than one-dimensional in the form of Alex, but his different take on the world is never brought into contact with the rest of the group apart from the moment of Rod's "conversion". "

I don't think that is particularly unusual. I think if it were a group of women then it would seem strange, but not for a group of man friends. Man mates can spend a lot of time together, especially in the pub, and can be talking constantly about all sorts of rubbish for hours on end, but very often would not dream of having a really deep in depth conversation about something that might expose them as "big softies". I can quite imagine that in a group of male friends, especially ones that congregate around alcohol, Alex would keep quiet about his philosophical beliefs perhaps just trying to lead by example rather than words.

I'm admittedly just going by what i witness with my hubby and his man mates - what they tend to do every couple of weeks or so is gather in my garden and have a session in the hot tub - so they all sit there with their cans of lager for up to three hours at a time talking, and I can hear every word. They talk about sport, films, TV, what happened last time they were drunk, take aways, cracks in walls, cars, bikes and all sorts of rubbish. When they talk about people it is usually to bitch - and let it be said that men can be as bitchy as, if not more bitchy, than women. The similarity with the male group in the book is simple - every time they get together, unless its for things like looking at cracks in walls - the common denominator is alcohol. A group of men don't do shopping trips or lunch or nip round to each others houses for coffee - they go to the pub for a few and I think that sets the tone for most conversations that they will have. It doesn't mean that they aren't friends, they are - its just that most chats they have are kept on a certain level.
Offline Stu Ayris Reading The Prophet by Khalil Gilbran
13 Aug 2012, 06:01 AM | Post: #29

Master of Verbosity
*******

Posts: 1,312
Joined: Jan 2012

Thanked 11 times

What I Read

RE: Bookclub: The discussion of The Bird That Nobody Sees (contains spoilers)

Thank you for that Elaine! The depiction of friendship in The Bird That Nobody Sees is probably, for me, the most central theme - that need to be connected to society in an unconditional way that is often not possible in other forms of relationship - whether that be marriage (Rod and Liz) or family (Eryn Rose, Brando and Renbourne.) The characters of Alex, Ray, Danny and Little Jon are based very closely on four of my mates and I have found, over the years, that it is the lack of expectation yet the absolute belief that any of us will do anything for the other, that makes such friendships so essential. It is what Rod needs and what Brando lacks - unconditional friendship. There really is no finer thing. Yes - alcohol is often the common denominator (in my experience!) but that doesn't mean the friendship is any less deep. It is that understanding that leads Rod to experience his vision towards the end of the book. Well that's the idea anyway!!

Omg
Offline Susanne Reading I Woke Up This Morning by Stuart Ayris
13 Aug 2012, 06:48 AM | Post: #30

Fountain of Wisdom
********

Posts: 5,054
Joined: Aug 2010

Thanked 5 times

What I Read

RE: Bookclub: The discussion of The Bird That Nobody Sees (contains spoilers)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, STU! Hope you have a wonderful day. Smile Pint

Happy Birthday
A book is like a garden carried in the pocket. ~Chinese Proverb

Currently Reading:The Buddha of Suburbia by Hanif Kureishi Last Book I Read:The House of the Mosque by Kader Abdolah Favourite Genres:Classics, politics, foreign language, "lit fic", funFavourite eBooks:
See my recommendations
Currently Reading:The Prophet by Khalil Gilbran Last Book I Read:Nicholas Nickleby by Charles Dickens Favourite Genres:Literary FictionFavourite eBooks:
See my recommendations
Currently Reading:Complete Works of H P Lovecraft Last Book I Read: Favourite Genres:Fantasy. Historical. Biography.
Currently Reading:The Cult of Me Last Book I Read:The Land That Time Forgot Favourite Genres:Good books :DFavourite eBooks:
See my recommendations
Currently Reading:Standers by Dale Brumfield Last Book I Read:The Twelfth Child by Bette Lee Crosby Favourite Genres:Anything with a damn good story (apart from spy thrillers)!Favourite eBooks:
See my recommendations
Currently Reading:I Woke Up This Morning by Stuart Ayris Last Book I Read:Little Girl Lost by Brian McGilloway Favourite Genres:contemporary fiction, literary fiction, crime/thriller,Favourite eBooks:
See my recommendations